How would you handle this situation?

From the moment they step through the door your bookings become guests, and their experiences determine whether they ever come back.
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AngloDutch
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How would you handle this situation?

Post by AngloDutch »

Well, after a disappointing 2-week holiday in Spain and a subsequent DVT in my leg after 2 days traveling in the car which lead to a Pulmonary Embolism from which I am still recovering, (see my post in 'The Cafe'), we now have one of the most strangest situations that just occurred with our last guests who left yesterday.

A group of 9 girls aged in their mid-20s arrived last Friday. No, not a hen party. This was a group of well-educated young females who when I showed them around, seemed that they would be no problem whatsoever. I thought that they would be perfect guests and were going to be very respectful of the accommodation. They told me that they were having a girls’ weekend away, and that they had left their partners behind in the west of the Netherlands from where they all came. They probably knew each other from university, and this was just a yearly get-together for them. Just another of the many similar groups that we often get here. They were only staying until Sunday, so a short weekend stay for them.

We had bad weather at the weekend and they spent most of Saturday inside, only venturing out to the nearby lakes on the Saturday afternoon.

We didn't see them again until Sunday morning when they came to our house to report that their front door had been damaged. They said that three teenaged boys had followed them back home from a nearby pub at around 2 a.m. last night. After eating in one of the restaurants in our village, the owner had told them that there were two 'pub-like' cafes in the village to where they could move on.

I know that the kitchens in the restaurants here close at 10.00 pm, and they said that they left the cafe at around 2 a.m., so they must have been a good 3-4 hours at the cafe. It appears that some of the local boys began chatting them up at the café while they were there.

These local boys, all of whom were in quite an inebriated state at closing time followed them home, even though our guests reiterated that they did not ask the boys (who were of course much younger than they were) to leave with them.

Our guests said that when they arrived at the farmhouse the boys pushed their way into the accommodation. The girls said that although they told these boys to leave, they refused at first. It appeared that the boys finally left after being almost pushed out of the back door. After getting these three teenagers out of the house, our guests thought that would be the last of it.

About a quarter of an hour later our guests said that they heard an almighty banging against the front door. It seemed that someone was doing their best to break the door down. Our guests did not open it, but just waited until it finally stopped. They then went to sleep. We were completely oblivious to any of these goings on and so were our neighbours.

The next morning the guests said that they had noticed that the front door was extremely badly damaged on the outside. It is a wooden door and the panels were now splintered and fractured and had been pushed back into the door by the force of the pounding. You could also see muddy foot prints on the door as well.

When I went around to inspect the damage I said that I would need to get a statement from them about what had occurred, as they said that they knew the full name of one of the boys and could describe how the other two looked like. If we were to go to the police then we would need some basic information and then our guests could provide more details to the police when they contacted them.

The problem we have is that there is no hard evidence of who actually damaged the door. We do not have cameras outside and just because these kids came into the house, there is no evidence that they caused the damage to the door. Of course they did, but there is no proof apart from the footprint.

I told the guests that as we had another group arriving this coming Wednesday that we would have to get the door repaired as soon as possible. Also, I told them that I had no idea whether the door could be repaired or whether it would have to be replaced. I would keep them informed of what happens. The guests looked like they were putting the information that I had asked for and the series of events into an email as I was leaving, so I thought that I would have from them what I needed to go to the police today. I took a lot of photos of the damage, before I left them to enjoy the rest of their weekend.

The guests departed after lunch and I didn't see them again. I have received nothing from them as yet, but I did get a local handyman to come around and give me an estimate to repair the damage - around €400. He is coming tomorrow morning to start the work.

It looks to me like it is going to be extremely difficult to get any compensation back from these boys (or their parents). Our guests could only remember one of the names and as I said, I have very limited information to give to the police (also, I only have a lead booking name, email address and a phone number from these girls).

We are holding €300 in security deposit from them.

My idea is to tell the guests that due to the higher than expected repair estimate, we cannot cover this ourselves. Our insurance won't cover this type of damage either.

I fully believe that these teenagers 'gate-crashed' into the accommodation. But I also think that once you have the keys to a property, you are fully responsible to what happens to that property while you are there, even if damage is caused by someone else with whom you have interacted, whether invited to the property or not.

You could argue that we can hardly hold our guests responsible if a fighter jet was to crash land on the roof while they were in residence, but it was these girls' decision to go to the cafe, their engaging the boys in conversation, that lead to the boys thinking that it was worth their while to follow the girls home.

Whether the girls, or some of the girls lead the boys on, who knows. I see it like this. It was our guests actions that evening that lead to these boys angrily trying to smash the front door down after they were rejected and subsequently ejected from the farmhouse. Therefore the guests must share part responsibility for what happened. I intend to state to the guests that we have decided to go 50/50 with them on this, and will use their security deposit to cover therefore a portion of the actual repair bill.

Am I being too lenient? Would others go after them for the full cost of the repair? Or would other owners say that what happened could not be blamed on the guests?

To add, the accommodation was left in a fairly tidy and clean state when these guests left, so they were certainly not the wild party-type.

Maybe we will have to add what I wrote above to the house notes, that we will hold our guests responsible for any damage inside or outside to the property, whether caused by members of their party or any other people with whom they have interacted, whether actually invited to the accommodation or not during their stay.

I am literally exhausted. Only another six bookings until January, including Christmas and New Year. Absolutely looking forward to having an extended rest until the 2020 season begins again….!
Last edited by AngloDutch on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
zebedee
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Post by zebedee »

No, don’t pay 50%.
They should have called the police when the boys were making a nuisance of themselves at the time. They should have called you as well (you are on site or nearby).
I don’t think the girls are being entirely honest with you.

Your tenants are responsible for the property during their stay.

The damage occurred when they were responsible.

Edited to add:
What would they have done if the damage occurred to their own property- just let it happen as they did to yours???

(I really hope you are feeling much better and making a full recovery)
GillianF
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Post by GillianF »

You are in the Netherlands, the property is in the Netherlands and the girls are Dutch. So, this shouldn't be as complicated as it might be.

I presume you have reported the incident to the Police already? You should give them the lead guest's contact details so that they can investigate what I would consider to be an attempted break-in and/or criminal damage.

I would withhold the damages deposit. I would tell the lead guest you have reported the matter to the Police and given them her contact details and are withholding her money until she provides the information she has about the boys. If it turns out to be not quite the whole truth on their part then they must take some/all responsibility for the damage.

Whether or not you hold them responsible in part or not it is not unreasonable to expect them to co-operate providing information about what is, after all, a crime which could have got a whole lot serious if the boys had gained access.

I'm quite surprised they didn't call the Police at the time (there being no question of them being in a foreign land and not knowing how to, speaking the language etc.) All that noise and banging must have been terrifying!

Have you spoken to the bar staff where the girls were approached/followed? I would think the Police will want to do so.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

Thought you lived on site.
Maybe ask at the bar(s) who the "local" boys were. You say there are not many
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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Post by Fleur »

I agree with Gillian F.

The girls must face up to their responsibilities.
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farley
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Post by farley »

Also agree with GillianF.
I really can’t understand why they didn’t call the Police and yourself. Quite bizarre.
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

Thanks everyone for the advice.

We are now almost 100% sure who the three boys are. One of them admitted to the guests that he used to be in one of our daughter's class. Seeing as these guys are aged around 17-18, it would have to be our eldest daughter.

Although our daughter doesn't know the boy named by the guests, she has identified two former classmates of hers that are shown in just about all the posts/photos on his social media pages.

Either one or both of them were almost definitely with this other guy at the cafe and subsequently all three of them followed our guests back to the farmhouse.

The carpenter is currently working on the door. He asked if I knew who was responsible and when I mentioned the guy's name, he said that it was his former neighbours’ son and that he was glad that he didn't live next door to them anymore. The boy is well-known in the village as a yob, especially when he's been drinking.

I am going to check with the owner of the bar (I know which bar it was) if he remembers what happened on Saturday night and if he knows who was actually present. As it’s now out of season, just about everything is closed here on Monday, so it will be open around midday. Hopefully he and his staff will still remember.

One of the boys that I think was present is the son of a prominent business man in the village. Due to the fact that we have identified his son as almost definitely being one of the culprits, we have left the police out of it for now. And I know that the father will be very happy that we did that. Once I am sure his son was present, I will present the repair bill to the father and ask if he can cover the costs, involving the families of the other two kids as well if he wants. His son is 17 (so younger than the other guy) and the father is therefore probably more likely to take some responsibility, especially as he would not want the police to be involved due to his standing in the village.

We live in a very small village here where everyone knows everyone. We have very little crime here and what does occur crimewise or accidentwise is normally always down to too much alcohol (young guys drinking and driving and then crashing their cars into trees, or kicking in a door when they don’t accept when pretty girls from the Western cities come here and tell them that they’re not interested in them).

If we can get this settled here in the village, then I will be able to refund the security deposit back to the guests. It all depends though on the reaction from the families and whether they want the girls to share some of the blame.

Though coming from a city, I would have expected the girls to have used a bit more common sense. If you notice that you are being followed it might have been wiser to have split the group up, with a few of them going off to get their cars. They could have then driven everyone away and these guys would have not known where they were staying. I understand that they may have felt safer as one group of nine together, but not walking directly back to your accommodation when you are being followed might have been a better idea....
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

never answered the question. do you live on site?
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

CSE wrote:never answered the question. do you live on site?
Yes, we do. But it seems that the guests chose not to disturb us in the middle of the night, and as I said, we did not hear any of the commotion going on, even though we live in the adjoining building.

You would have thought that something as serious as this was good reason to disturb us, but that was not the only event that happened that night which we don't fully understand and which ultimately resulted in the front door being almost broken through.

According to the guy who repaired the door yesterday, a couple more kicks and these guys would have been into the accommodation.

Just waiting on the invoice now.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

Thank you for clearing that up.
If there had been a disturbance as the guests were coming home I would have expected someone to have heard it. A group of "boys" are not going to be as silent as a grave.
The guests had double chance to report the issue, to you or the police. It does not make sense.
It sounds fishier than a fisher's wife. :shock:

Maybe do not risk upsetting you relationship with the neighbours. There are actions you can take via the courts. May take time but if the repair is a lot then it will be the best cause. Maybe even a threat of action would make the guests pay up.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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paolo
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Post by paolo »

Another reading of this is that you have a gang of boys in your village who like to get drunk and be sexually aggressive to girls, even kicking in doors to get to them, and you don't want to involve the police because you want to protect one of them. And you think the girls should pay for any damage. Are you taking the right side here?
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GillianF
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Post by GillianF »

I think Paolo makes a good point here. These local boys are clearly out of hand and if they aren't brought to task they will continue in their view that this sort of drunken, aggressive behaviour is acceptable. They may currently limit their actions towards visitors/tourists but may also turn their attention to the local girls.

I think it would be irresponsible not to report this behaviour to the police who may just have a strong chat with them which may be enough to give them the message this is not acceptable behaviour. The local bars might also be advised to stop serving the boys or alert the police when they are drunk and/or seen hassling young women.

Of course, the girls should have reported the incident etc. etc. but the fact they didn't does not excuse or negate the behaviour of the boys.
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Post by AngloDutch »

I have just received a statement from the guests – here in translation:

‘While present at the café we were invited to a party in a barn. We decided not to go and left to go back to the accommodation. Three guys walked with us home saying that they wanted to have a private party with us instead. We also said that we weren’t interested, especially because some of us were already sleeping in the accommodation.

Before we knew what was going on, one of the boys was inside the accommodation and went to lie down on one of the sofas. Two of us then grabbed him by the legs and arms and pulled him off the sofa and asked him to leave the farmhouse. He then ran up the stairs to the bedrooms where several of us went after him and managed to subdue him on the staircase.

His two friends (names unknown) remained outside the accommodation (by the back door) during the entire time that this was occurring. They continued yelling at him to come out of the house. Eventually we managed to force him out of the back door but by this time he was extremely angry. They remained around the house and began banging on the windows.

One of our friends who was sleeping upstairs but by this time awake, began to shout at them through an upstairs window that they should leave as they were causing a disturbance. The girls downstairs remained in the sitting room and did not witness anything further occurring.

Then on the following morning we noticed that the door had been broken and that there was a shoe mark across the outside of the door (most probably from one of their wooden shoes)’.


This statement differs to what one of the girls told us last Sunday morning. She had said that all three of the boys had been sitting talking with them at the café. She was able to tell us the full name of the main perpetrator and things that he had told them in discussion. So, the contact that our guests had with these three before the events at the farmhouse was not just limited to when these guys came over and asked the girls to go to a party with them.

I also find it very hard to believe that all nine women slept through their front door being broken down, unless they were all in a drunken coma within fifteen minutes of the three boys leaving.

I have already sent the guests three photos. One is definitely of the guy that came into the accommodation. The other two photos are of his usual drinking buddies. I did not append any names to the photos. I just asked if any of the nine girls who were present at the café at various times that evening recognized any of them as being the boys at the café, the same or different boys who followed them back to the accommodation, the same person who was in the accommodation and again, the same two standing at the back door.

They have confirmed that they cannot be sure that any of the photos were of the guys at the café or at the farmhouse.

Since they are unable to identify anyone, I cannot now confront the family of one of the boys who I believe was one of the two at the backdoor. Also, the guests have now confirmed that only one of these guys actually entered the house. The other two could be done for trespassing at the rear garden, but that’s just about it. Even if the identities of those two in the garden could be confirmed, there is no real evidence that they did anything wrong and therefore I would have no reason to confront their families.

In this situation, involving the police would not be a good idea. From what I have managed to find out, the guy who entered the house no longer lives in our village. He does not have a job. As I said, he is a known troublemaker. He loses his temper and becomes violent at the smallest excuse. Knowing the police here, they would just interview him and do nothing else. The idea of him returning to the guest accommodation, or to our own home and causing more damage in the middle of the night, is obviously not something that we would want to invite. He could make our lives hell and really affect the running of our business here (disturbing future guests just by banging on the windows again, for example).

Also, he knows from his drinking mates that we have two 13 and 16 year-old girls living here. Our eldest daughter works part-time at a restaurant/bar in the village as well.

As Paolo said, we are dealing with a guy who has no brake on how far he will go, including being sexually aggressive to the opposite sex, whether they are our guests at a café or our own daughter having to serve him at a table.

Normally I would say, to hell with the consequences, I am not letting an 18-year-old terrorize me in my own house and I would definitely call the police. But when our daughters could become his next victims, that is something else. Unlike the guests, they can’t leave the village on Sunday evening.

But if we or any of our future guests have any more problems with this guy (or his friends), then we will of course be forced to involve the police. We hope he will just back off, but he may not...
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Post by Drax »

Perhaps you should review your policy regarding all female/male guests. Having a relatively large number of same sex guests is a potential for trouble.
Keep your powder dry.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

paolo wrote:Another reading of this is that you have a gang of boys in your village who like to get drunk and be sexually aggressive to girls, even kicking in doors to get to them, and you don't want to involve the police because you want to protect one of them. And you think the girls should pay for any damage. Are you taking the right side here?
Several members have expressed an opinion that the girls/women are responsible.
Ultimately the women are responsible, by law, for any damage to the property. It is them that should pay their dues to AD.


These guests are not girls they are adults and should have behaved like adults. Not calling the police and/or the owner does not make sense.
Some of the story does not make any sense. For example, were the females not harassed by the males on the way back to the rental. If the males were that drunk that would have occurred, no?

IMHO it is too late to contact the police. The guess should have done that. AD could have done that when the guest first informed when when they were leaving. But nothing has been reported. The guests recollections are evolving. No doubt the males would well have got their story together by now.

If the males are as unrestrained as the guests say then maybe if AD makes complains officially or just by contacting the parents, of the males, then things could well have other consequences.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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