Tournesol wrote:We get nearly all of our guests through B.com, who don't take tds but do notify the guest that it is payable. We just collect it at the end of their stay. It usually only equates to a euro or two, as it's mostly one or two night stays at 50 cents a night per adult, and I have sometimes forgotten to ask for it, in which case we pay it anyway. Nobody has objected.
We also get most B&B bookings through B.com which raises a point that if you include TDS in your rental rate and take bookings through B.com or any other commission based platform, you will be paying commission on the TDS which to me is a bit stupid.
I still can't understand the logic of many Brit owners insisting it is the right thing to do when French owners take the TDS separately.
From Jan 2019 we all (inc French) have to include the tax in our room rates which as you say will mean more commission paid. It is now not a tax on the guest but as GillianF said it is another tax for being in business. They are pushing you to get your business classified as if not (like us) you will now lose the 71% abatement which reduces to 50%. The tax you have to collect is also higher for non classified at 3% of the nightly room rate per person. I know they are trying to stop the B&B's that pop up for the season but doubt if this will work it just means the likes of us that play by the rules lose out again. We know many Brits who live in the UK, rent out their gites and are not interested in collecting, let alone paying the tax. Perhaps they should go after these.
We are only seasonal because there is no heating in the rooms we rent out (we are renting this property) so we just close off that part of the house for winter!
It won't affect us anyway as we are moving house in October, so this is our last season.
The idea was just to make a bit of money to help pay the rent as it is a larger house than we were originally looking for and it was the owner's suggestion.
By the time you take into account B.com's commission, cotisations, food, new bedding, decorating and the cost of laundry for a succession of one night stays I doubt whether we have even broken even!
But it's been an interesting experience.
Frenchlady wrote:From Jan 2019 we all (inc French) have to include the tax in our room rates which as you say will mean more commission paid. It is now not a tax on the guest but as GillianF said it is another tax for being in business.
I just phoned « l'assistance technique hébergeurs » on 02 56 66 20 05 who confirmed that there is no obligation in 2019 to include the TDS in your rental rate. You can continue to ask your guest to pay it separately before departure.
Have just done a translation of the document we have received from our commune:
all owners of accommodation that accommodate tourists for a fee
The accommodation provider at the Tressor Public de Belves pays the stay tax on a fixed price basis and not directly by the guests.
The accommodation provider must therefore collect it on the rental price of the accommodation (the tourist tax is thus automatically included in the rental price and does not appear on the customer's invoice).
This applies if you are non-classified on the forfait system.
All totally confusing but above is saying we collect and not charge the guest.
It would be interesting to see the whole of the original version in French of what you have received but your translation conflicts with what I was told today on the phone as applying throughout France. Perhaps there is an allowance for individual communes to vary the rules.
If I pay the tax and it is going to be significantly more than in previous years then we have to increase our prices and won't that be good for business.
If the guest has to pay the tax then I have to, on arrival, ask them for payment in cash Euros and have change on me if they only have a €50 note and all the awkwardness of dealing with cash when meeting/greeting.
If I charge them separately before they arrive they will want to pay in sterling by bank transfer and I'm not sure how that will pan out - it will need thinking about. Separate bill, they have to make currency conversions £/€, I have to check it's right, check they've paid in time etc. Suppose they pay for 6 guests for a fortnight and then there is a change of plan and only 6 turn up for a week and then just 2 for the second week. They want a refund ……… and so it goes on.
Frenchlady wrote:Have just done a translation of the document we have received from our commune:
all owners of accommodation that accommodate tourists for a fee
The accommodation provider at the Tressor Public de Belves pays the stay tax on a fixed price basis and not directly by the guests.
The accommodation provider must therefore collect it on the rental price of the accommodation
Is this is Google translated? It looks like it might have been chewed up by Google to mean something different from the original. Do you have the original version to hand to compare?
Frenchlady wrote:Have just done a translation of the document we have received from our commune:
all owners of accommodation that accommodate tourists for a fee
The accommodation provider at the Tressor Public de Belves pays the stay tax on a fixed price basis and not directly by the guests.
The accommodation provider must therefore collect it on the rental price of the accommodation (the tourist tax is thus automatically included in the rental price and does not appear on the customer's invoice).
This applies if you are non-classified on the forfait system.
All totally confusing but above is saying we collect and not charge the guest.
As you haven't clarified what is the text in French, I phoned the Office de Tourism in Belvès to seek clarification. I assume you depend on Belvès?
The lady I spoke to confirms that in 2019 you continue to collect the TDS from your guest before they leave and you should not add the TDS to your rental price.
I was also reminded that it is a legal obligation to have a notice in your rental accommodation giving the rate of the TDS which in 2019 for non classified accommodation in the Belvès area will be 3% of the daily rental rate divided by the total number per persons (including children) multiplied by the number of adults per day.
Maths isn't my strong suit - ask anyone that knows me!
The calculation is "3% of the daily rental rate divided by the total number per persons (including children) multiplied by the number of adults per day."
Keeping it simple: If we charge £700 per week for six people that is £100 per day for six people. Divide £100 by six = 16.66. Multiply that by the number of adults which could be anything from six adults to one adult?
The result is anything from 99.99 for six adults to 16.66 for one adult?
We pay that result (whatever it might be) as TdS. They will have no idea if it is right or not - we can say one adult or six adults or anything in between?
The calculation is to be based on the number of people staying, not the total capacity. So to give two examples using Gillian's figures, but using Euros as we are in France, TDS is paid in Euros, and all guests have a few Euros in their Pocket to pay the TDS.
Example 1
Weekly rate 700€ therefore daily rate 100€
Number staying 2 adults and 2 children = 4 persons
100€ divided by 4 = 25€
3% of 25€ = 0.75€ to be paid per adult
Therefore 2 adults pay a total of 1.50€ per day.
Example 2
Weekly rate 700€ therefore daily rate 100€
Number staying 6 adults
100€ divided by 6 = 16.67€
3% of 16.67€ = near enough 0.50€ to be paid per adult
Therefore 6 adults pay a total of 3€ per day
Of course if you don't want to follow the rules and include the TDS in your rental rate in pounds you do have the added problem of currency conversion.
We have two establishments, a B&B and a weekly holiday rental.
We ask the B&B guests to pay once they have settled in on the first evening covering the number of nights they are staying and give them a receipt
We ask the holiday rental guests to pay on departure and give them a receipt.
Of course, if you are an absent owner you will need a different method.
As I have said before, we include the requirement to pay TDS in our T&Cs. It have never to our knowledge put anyone off because they already know about it and noone has ever objected
Thank you oasiscouple - that makes more sense to me now. (Did I say my maths is not good?!)
Example 1 means I collect 21 Euros for a fortnight and Example 2 I collect 42 Euros for a fortnight.
And, we now seem to be back to the 'old' system of paying for who actually stays at the property rather than it being assumed we are full every week we are open and paying accordingly.
GillianF wrote:And, we now seem to be back to the 'old' system of paying for who actually stays at the property rather than it being assumed we are full every week we are open and paying accordingly.
In the two régions we do lettings it is not an "old" system but has always been based on the number of adults staying. Likewise in other régions where people we know do holiday lettings.
It is only on this forum I have heard of owners being charged TDS on full capacity regardless. According to my wife who is French, this is not legal but perhaps could arise as retribution if TDS has not been declared and paid correctly in the past.
If you keep clear records of who is staying with dates, separating adults from children, giving a receipt with a copy kept by you, it should never happen.
Until two years ago I used to receive a form in October. I would fill it in with the number of nights let, the number in each party, with a breakdown for each party of adults, children and babies. I then applied the appropriate rate of tds for adults, children and babies (free) arrived at a grand total for people who had stayed for how long and paid it.
For the last two years the tds has been applied on the assumption we have six adults (maximum) for every night we have declared ourselves open for business.
I can't say how it is in other regions - I only know what our local office does because that is all I have to deal with.
Gillian, if you would like to PM me giving more info such as where you are and which tourist office you deal with I can look into it for you but normally it shouldn't happen like that.