Hi,
I really have enough to work with cleaning women not knowing to change a light bulb or to clean a syphon. When at least they would clean "Comme il faut".
So I'll employ a male cleaner for my Paris apartments.
Has anybody experiences with this or do you all work with "systeme D " = systeme debrouillage ?
Best Regards
Martin Wunder
experiences with French employees
Martin,
Maggie must be right - you were joking about the cleaners (poor joke, indeed).
If, though, it wasn’t a joke, maybe I can clarify the problem.
Cleaners in France don’t change light bulbs or clean syphons : this is general maintenance work & you should have somebody you can call on for this type of problem.
In the Paris region you are probably employing a Portugese or Asian cleaner. She (or he) will almost certainly know a “handy person� who will do all your general maintenance work.
If I got our general maintenance man to do the cleaning I wouldn’t stay in the rental business 2 weeks : he does his own job well but doesn’t have the first idea about cleanliness.
Happy holiday to everyone,
Alexia.
Maggie must be right - you were joking about the cleaners (poor joke, indeed).
If, though, it wasn’t a joke, maybe I can clarify the problem.
Cleaners in France don’t change light bulbs or clean syphons : this is general maintenance work & you should have somebody you can call on for this type of problem.
In the Paris region you are probably employing a Portugese or Asian cleaner. She (or he) will almost certainly know a “handy person� who will do all your general maintenance work.
If I got our general maintenance man to do the cleaning I wouldn’t stay in the rental business 2 weeks : he does his own job well but doesn’t have the first idea about cleanliness.
Happy holiday to everyone,
Alexia.
-
sleekitbeastie
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:04 am
If there is a joke I don't see it. I have, for years, tried to employ male cleaners as I have found it expedient for exactly the reasons Martin suggests. I have found, consistently, that male cleaners have been more adept at jobs like cleaning out the shower trap and the odd minor repair. Cleaners in France, as elsewhere, do whatever they are willing and able to do. I employ two, one changes light bulbs – the other doesn’t.
I assume that the original post has triggered sensitivities objecting to the observation that, in general, men are more able to perform such tasks. This is not a genetic characteristic nor is it inherent. It is cultural. Fewer women than men are adept at general household maintenance just as fewer men than women are adept at cooking and ironing. It’s the way they were brought up. I cannot see that Martin has justified the absurd charge that he is being ‘offensive to a group in society’. It is offensive to charge him with this when his sole sin is that English is not his first language and his expression may have been a little clumsy.
Generations of tradition and training have ensured that men turn to things mechanical and women to things domestic – generally speaking. This is a direct result of the tendency for boys to play at helping daddy mend the car and girls at helping mummy do the ironing. Even today it is common for boys playing at ironing to be looked on somewhat askance as though such activities are somehow unmanly, somehow ‘nancy’. When I was 18 (a long time ago) I was called exactly that by fellow students because I could (and did) make my own bread and sew on a button. All boys should have that kind of upbringing and training. All girls should be taught how to change a plug and fix a dripping tap. It is happening but is by no means the norm yet.
Strident attacks on statements of observable fact do not help the situation.
I assume that the original post has triggered sensitivities objecting to the observation that, in general, men are more able to perform such tasks. This is not a genetic characteristic nor is it inherent. It is cultural. Fewer women than men are adept at general household maintenance just as fewer men than women are adept at cooking and ironing. It’s the way they were brought up. I cannot see that Martin has justified the absurd charge that he is being ‘offensive to a group in society’. It is offensive to charge him with this when his sole sin is that English is not his first language and his expression may have been a little clumsy.
Generations of tradition and training have ensured that men turn to things mechanical and women to things domestic – generally speaking. This is a direct result of the tendency for boys to play at helping daddy mend the car and girls at helping mummy do the ironing. Even today it is common for boys playing at ironing to be looked on somewhat askance as though such activities are somehow unmanly, somehow ‘nancy’. When I was 18 (a long time ago) I was called exactly that by fellow students because I could (and did) make my own bread and sew on a button. All boys should have that kind of upbringing and training. All girls should be taught how to change a plug and fix a dripping tap. It is happening but is by no means the norm yet.
Strident attacks on statements of observable fact do not help the situation.
Observable fact? Not sure about that. I am not sure I know what Martin means by his post but it seems rather sweeping and dare I say insulting to the fairer sex. And in my experience women CAN change lightbulbs and clean U-bends (syphons) - my cleaner, wife and mother all do these things. My uncle can do neither of them.
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
-
sleekitbeastie
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:04 am
I don't think one can rely on anecdotal data such as 'my wife can...'. It is still true (see social trends surveys in the US, UK and Australia - and probably more but I don't have sufficient enthusiasm to research) men do more maintenance functions and women more domestic functions. Reference to 'the fairer sex' is more insulting than anything that Martin said. It trivialises women and smacks mightily of male chauvinism.
As an example – in 2004 UK eight out of ten men always looked after small repairs to the home compared with one in ten women – source http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/ ... ends34.pdf.
Or: Home maintenance participation in Australia – men 26.7% women 6.6% - source http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf ... 9F0005D62D.
The detailed analysis is too boring but more reliable than ‘my wife…�.
I should not have said ‘observable’ but ‘observed’, as in measured and recorded.
These are recorded data. I find it deplorable that this situation still pertains but it will ever be so for as long as we have the ‘fairer sex’.
The future is up for change but not the past.
As an example – in 2004 UK eight out of ten men always looked after small repairs to the home compared with one in ten women – source http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/ ... ends34.pdf.
Or: Home maintenance participation in Australia – men 26.7% women 6.6% - source http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf ... 9F0005D62D.
The detailed analysis is too boring but more reliable than ‘my wife…�.
I should not have said ‘observable’ but ‘observed’, as in measured and recorded.
These are recorded data. I find it deplorable that this situation still pertains but it will ever be so for as long as we have the ‘fairer sex’.
The future is up for change but not the past.
-
sleekitbeastie
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:04 am
Oddly enough no... but I spend my time with people who exchange knowledge rather than insults. I was called timerous once. I wouldn't mind too much anyway - if a genius can describe himself as a (harmless) drudge why should I worry at tedious.Tom wrote:sleekitbestie...Has anyone ever accused you of being tedious?!No offence, but...
Gosh! I find that very surprising - we obviously see the world through very different eyes. And we're interpreting what Martin said in different ways.Reference to 'the fairer sex' is more insulting than anything that Martin said. It trivialises women and smacks mightily of male chauvinism.
Perhaps Martin could clarify - did you mean that women cleaners are generally useless, or that they cannot be relied upon to change a light-bulb?
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
-
Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
-
sleekitbeastie
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:04 am
Martin's comments would be interesting - I would not like to feel that I was defending someone dismissive of women in general.
You might find it interesting and enlightening to read Greer and others on the use of 'fair sex'. I erased the expression from my vocabulary more than 30 years ago when I came to understand the dismissive implications.
You might find it interesting and enlightening to read Greer and others on the use of 'fair sex'. I erased the expression from my vocabulary more than 30 years ago when I came to understand the dismissive implications.
-
musicmonkey
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:37 pm
- Location: Manche
- Contact:
This is just the kind of contentious issue that has caused so much trouble on other forums. Surely, it is not a question of whether a 'specific' group of people can or can't do this or that, it is just a question of whether an individual is able, or indeed willing to do it?
Having had my say, I think the issue would be best left there.
Having had my say, I think the issue would be best left there.
-
Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
experiences with French employees
Happy Christmas and Happy New Year to all !
English is my 2. foreign language, French my first and favorit. I present all my excuses when my post caused misunderstandings.
After all my qustion was " has anybody experiences" and I should have written: with French law, social security system, URSAAF, ANPE, are employees more reliable when they are really employed and not working "au noir" ? Periods of notice ? and so on.
I spoke - just to explain - about light bulbs. Please note that my cleaners have signed a written contract and committed to pay attention to this and to change the light bulbs are broken.
But they don't do....worse...they even don't see this detail. It is bitter truth that I had cleaners not knowing to change light bulbs, I even had cleaners ( i just write cleaner...no matter what sexe) not knowing to lock a door.
I'm not joking. I call my renters when they have checked in and they tell me all. And my renters replace the light bulbs ......
In a post I read I could employ 2 different persons: a cleaner and a "technicien". But shall I really ask someone in Paris to go to my apartment just to change a light bulb ( it takes not a minute ) and you know: I can only undertake repairs when the apartment is inoccupied - between check-out of past renter and check-in of new renter.
Martin
English is my 2. foreign language, French my first and favorit. I present all my excuses when my post caused misunderstandings.
After all my qustion was " has anybody experiences" and I should have written: with French law, social security system, URSAAF, ANPE, are employees more reliable when they are really employed and not working "au noir" ? Periods of notice ? and so on.
I spoke - just to explain - about light bulbs. Please note that my cleaners have signed a written contract and committed to pay attention to this and to change the light bulbs are broken.
But they don't do....worse...they even don't see this detail. It is bitter truth that I had cleaners not knowing to change light bulbs, I even had cleaners ( i just write cleaner...no matter what sexe) not knowing to lock a door.
I'm not joking. I call my renters when they have checked in and they tell me all. And my renters replace the light bulbs ......
In a post I read I could employ 2 different persons: a cleaner and a "technicien". But shall I really ask someone in Paris to go to my apartment just to change a light bulb ( it takes not a minute ) and you know: I can only undertake repairs when the apartment is inoccupied - between check-out of past renter and check-in of new renter.
Martin
Ah! that is rather different, Martin ("I should have written: with French law, social security system, URSAAF, ANPE, are employees more reliable when they are really employed and not working "au noir" ? Periods of notice ?").
I have had a lot of experience with the French law, social security system, URSAAF & ANPE. If you are resident in France & pay income tax you have every reason to pay your employees by "cheque emploi" because of the fiscal advantages - this is not your case if you live in Germany.
Anyone who employs 'black" (undeclared) labour in France is risking huge fines - & worse if the employee has an accident: in a nearly-worst case scenario you could have to pay an invalid's pension for the duration of the life of the injured emplyee. If the employee died( e.g. fell out of a window,off a ladder onto her/his head , electrocuted her/himself etc etc) this becomes the worst case scenario & includes payments ("damages") to the surviving family. Prison is a possible sentence but is rarely imposed in these circumstances in France.
Look at http://www.service-public.fr/ for more information.
The employer is always in a fragile situation when the employee is undeclared - and (in Paris, at least) the employees generally know this.
As for employing somebody for general maintenance, you seem to be depending on your domestic staff to participate in the management of your lets (maintaining the working order of the equipment - lights & drains- rather than just cleaning it)- do you pay them well over the average to compensate them for this extra responsability? If not, you can hardly be surprised if they stick to what is within the terms of a standard cleaning contract in France - even if you include the extra obligations in your (written??) contract.
Happy holiday,
Alexia.
http://perfectplaces.com/VictorianVilla.htm
http://perfectplaces.com/BeautifulOliveMill.htm.
I have had a lot of experience with the French law, social security system, URSAAF & ANPE. If you are resident in France & pay income tax you have every reason to pay your employees by "cheque emploi" because of the fiscal advantages - this is not your case if you live in Germany.
Anyone who employs 'black" (undeclared) labour in France is risking huge fines - & worse if the employee has an accident: in a nearly-worst case scenario you could have to pay an invalid's pension for the duration of the life of the injured emplyee. If the employee died( e.g. fell out of a window,off a ladder onto her/his head , electrocuted her/himself etc etc) this becomes the worst case scenario & includes payments ("damages") to the surviving family. Prison is a possible sentence but is rarely imposed in these circumstances in France.
Look at http://www.service-public.fr/ for more information.
The employer is always in a fragile situation when the employee is undeclared - and (in Paris, at least) the employees generally know this.
As for employing somebody for general maintenance, you seem to be depending on your domestic staff to participate in the management of your lets (maintaining the working order of the equipment - lights & drains- rather than just cleaning it)- do you pay them well over the average to compensate them for this extra responsability? If not, you can hardly be surprised if they stick to what is within the terms of a standard cleaning contract in France - even if you include the extra obligations in your (written??) contract.
Happy holiday,
Alexia.
http://perfectplaces.com/VictorianVilla.htm
http://perfectplaces.com/BeautifulOliveMill.htm.