UK In/Out referendum

Come for a relaxed chat about anything at all and meet your fellow rental owners.
User avatar
CSE
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: Galicia

Post by CSE »

I'm getting vert tired indeed of people saying "accept it and move on". They clearly have no bl**dy idea what's going on outside of their own immediate experience.
But that is what we have (our own experience) in life. You have your worries and we have ours. Life is hard, but we are all still getting on with it in the best way we know how.

However we are not certainly not going to let that Black Dog get us down.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
lorca
Posts: 2358
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: The Axarquia, Spain

Post by lorca »

casasantoestevo wrote:
I'm getting vert tired indeed of people saying "accept it and move on". They clearly have no bl**dy idea what's going on outside of their own immediate experience.
But that is what we have (our own experience) in life.
Of course it's not all we have. For me this is part of the problem with the referendum. The subject is very complex indeed. Many people wouldn´t (or couldn´t) take the effort to look at and try to understand the bigger picture, rather than just what's going on in their own immediate circle. This happens in general elections of course (..."I don't care about education, I don't have children " etc etc,") but the consequences of this vote are far more long term and irreversable.
If not now, when?
User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 7062
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:15 am
Location: Norfolk

Post by Nemo »

I'm sorry that I used the term "I move on" as I certainly didn't mean it as has been taken or in any way to diminish the impact this vote had on us all, whether in the UK or outside.

I don't think anyone on either side of the fence or within the different countries can understand the strength of feeling on both sides or understand the implications on each of our families and individual circumstance. I have heard many passionate arguments and read copious amounts of articles on the matter, again on both sides.

It's very sad that it should have divided us so much, both on here and in real life, although I have friends on both sides of the vote and fortunately we will remain friends despite any differences.

I clearly lit the touchpaper when I replied to Jim's comment, so I won't be doing that again. There's far too much hurt in the world already to be throwing words around on here to no useful purpose.
User avatar
French Cricket
Posts: 3058
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: French Pyrénées
Contact:

Post by French Cricket »

casasantoestevo wrote: It has been reported that there is millions of people both in and outside of the UK worried about this. But most will be getting on with their lives.
If only that were true.

The level of fear here in France amongst UK citizens - from all walks of life, young, retired, working, self-employed - is totally mind boggling (and yes, that is a fact, not conjecture. I'm currently working with a group of thousands, every day, and for most of the day, because it's all I know to do with my own feelings and because there is some comfort in solidarity).

I'm sure it's the same in other countries. I know - because I'm in touch with groups of French in the UK - that it's the same amongst those communities.

Thousands, millions, of lives paralysed by fear, anger and uncertainty.
User avatar
CSE
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: Galicia

Post by CSE »

FC so how many have left the country of settlement to return to their country of origin, since the referendum? The post still stands most are getting on with their lives. There is no sight to the outcome and we have to wait. It could be for the good.

Imagine you had just lost your work in a Welsh bus company collapse and informed about by text.
Just imagine if one of your loved ones had been in murdered/injured it that attack that happened in Nice last night.
Imagine if you was in Syria.
Imagine if the doctor had just diagnosed you with something that had put a time line in your life.

All of these illustrations are now, with no way for a change to the outcome.thee fore these examples, and more, means we would have something to be really anxious about.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
lorca
Posts: 2358
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: The Axarquia, Spain

Post by lorca »

I’m sorry I and I but you really don’t seem to get it.

I obviously haven’t explained myself very well. For me, and many of my friends and family who voted to remain, this is far more important than our own personal issues.

It’s about a vision of the sort of country I want to belong to. I am (or was) proud to be British, but I’m also proud to be a European. I liked it that my country was part of a group of nations that has shared values – of human rights, free healthcare, multiculturalism, protection of the environment, consumer and workplace rights, co-operation in academic, scientific and educational projects etc etc. The EU is far from perfect, but its values differ greatly from those of our “new” potential trading partners such as China and the US, who care little for such things.

It’s not something we’re going to get over very quickly
If not now, when?
User avatar
French Cricket
Posts: 3058
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: French Pyrénées
Contact:

Post by French Cricket »

lorca, yes.

Anger = the betrayal of the values that matter deeply to us.

Fear = in finding ourselves to be citizens of a country that turns inwards, fears strangers and closes in on itself.

Uncertainty = about our personal futures.
User avatar
kevsboredagain
Posts: 3207
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:32 am
Location: France
Contact:

Post by kevsboredagain »

casasantoestevo wrote:FC so how many have left the country of settlement to return to their country of origin, since the referendum?
I know several who have already looked into making sure they can keep residence in their country of settlement, so they don't have to return to the UK. That includes myself. Just because a few million people don't relocate in 3 weeks does not mean there is no impact. It's the same as saying there's been no financial impact since the referendum so all the fear mongering was a lie. It's only been 3 weeks and we are STILL IN THE EU.
User avatar
CSE
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: Galicia

Post by CSE »

Lorca. Your post is a little confusing. Are we talking about the EU and the Brexit or Brexit and the US and China? What happened to the rest of the world????

So keep this discussion simple. Lets compare the UK with Spain the country you live in.


human rights. The UK was the first to have such a bill of law. It was the UK that set the process going in Europe after WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rig ... ed_Kingdom
Spain, is a failure on this subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Spain
http://www.thelocal.es/20160224/six-hum ... sty-report

free healthcare. Nothing in this world is for free. The UK was the first country to set up a public health care system. That system is free at point of use for most treatments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcar ... ed_Kingdom
Spain is considered to have one of the best in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_N ... lth_System
Having read the various forums where you live can show up small differences in quality and what is available here in Spain.

multiculturalism. Does not really exist here in Spain, especially when compared with the UK.
Poland is blaming the EU's policy on multiculturalism for the attacks in France https://next.ft.com/content/57980523-56 ... bd05d59113
Spain's treatment of refugees.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/04/27/ine ... 57825.html
http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/04/13/ine ... 26980.html

protection of the environment This is not so clear cut. The subject covers many aspects. The UK is cutting back spending in this area. However there are still many volunteer groups active. Nobody wants wind farms in their back yard and fracking is going to be undertaking.
On the other hand Spain has many wind farms, but little solar power. It now issues fines to households, who are connected to the power grid, but still have solar panels. Electric cars are not so popular as other countries. They still issue plastic bags at supermarkets and even require one to where plastic gloves when handling fruit and veg.

consumer and workplace rights I think you will agree that the UK is a leader on this subject. Have you ever had to fill in a complaints form in Spain? Return goods which are not working? Even cancelling something simple like insurance can only be done with 2 months notice via a letter. There are problems with the banks not wanting to pay back overpaid interest (clausula suelo), even though the EU courts have demanded it.
The UK was the first country in the world to give equal pay to women, after the Ford's of Dagenham strike. The UK has upper and lower temps for office workers, Spain does not.

Could go on but maybe this is enough for you to think that there is a lot of difference between the two counties and Spain does not make you or any one in Spain European. If you feel so strong on this subject then maybe start the process to become Spanish.
http://citizensadvice.org.es/topic/how- ... tionality/
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
lorca
Posts: 2358
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: The Axarquia, Spain

Post by lorca »

Ian and/or Irene (difficult to converse when one person posts and another replies)

You are being deliberately obtuse, which is your privilege, but there comes a point where it is pretty pointless to carry on the discussion.

However, as you well know, I was talking about values. No one country is perfect or is able to implement them as well as we would wish. But in order to join the EU accepting the principles of those values is a prerequisite to joining (which is why Turkey will find it very hard).

As you also know, much of the Tory party (and many other non-aligned Brexiters) want to leave the EU because they not longer wish to hold by many of those values. They do not like the Human Rights Act, many wish to continue the creeping privatisation of the NHS (and have vested interests in doing so), they believe consumer and employment regulation is “bad for business”, they question the existence of climate change…..

There are indeed many problems in Spain, but at least the popular movements here are progressive and outward looking.
If not now, when?
User avatar
kevsboredagain
Posts: 3207
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:32 am
Location: France
Contact:

Post by kevsboredagain »

casasantoestevo wrote:
So keep this discussion simple.
Then what happened?
User avatar
Casscat
Posts: 2692
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:43 pm

Post by Casscat »

casasantoestevo wrote:So keep this discussion simple.
*Goes on to post 5,000 links* :roll:

The discussion is not simple. The discussion is complex. It involves millions of lives in dozens of countries. Every single one of those millions of people has a personal perspective, things that are important to them or affect them directly or indirectly. For some it is a matter of indifference, or something they have yet to fully understand, for others it is a source of concern or uncertainty or fear or any of the other emotions in the human lucky dip. You have it all sussed it would seem - well congratulations. I don't frankly, which is why your 'let's keep things simple' posts are both patronising and unhelpful. This is not about wind farms and making formal complaints when you are disappointed with the durability of a bloody carrier bag.
User avatar
CSE
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: Galicia

Post by CSE »

lorca wrote:Ian and/or Irene (difficult to converse when one person posts and another replies)

You are being deliberately obtuse, which is your privilege, but there comes a point where it is pretty pointless to carry on the discussion.

However, as you well know, I was talking about values. No one country is perfect or is able to implement them as well as we would wish. But in order to join the EU accepting the principles of those values is a prerequisite to joining (which is why Turkey will find it very hard).

As you also know, much of the Tory party (and many other non-aligned Brexiters) want to leave the EU because they not longer wish to hold by many of those values. They do not like the Human Rights Act, many wish to continue the creeping privatisation of the NHS (and have vested interests in doing so), they believe consumer and employment regulation is “bad for business”, they question the existence of climate change…..

There are indeed many problems in Spain, but at least the popular movements here are progressive and outward looking.
We are certainly not being obtuse. We understand you concerns but some posters on here very preoccupied by the situation.
In you previous post you made some points which are not correct. The points of which we have written about.
In the above quote you are not correct in saying that the Tories are wanting to leave the EU. If you recall the exPM and the new PM wanted to stay in the EU. Now we have the new PM saying that Article 50 may be delayed until there is full agreement with Scotland. What happened to the other parts of the UK and Gibraltar too? Maybe even more delays.
The EU elites have soften their tone on Brexit. Just with these two points we would put forward the question why worry so much?The outcome of Brexit may not happen. Things are moving fast on a daily basis, read the following.

Tonight's possible Coup d'état in Turkey may end up shaping something in the near future.
It was only earlier in the day that the OECD said that the Turkish economy is vulnerable to both domestic and external threats.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/oecd-urges- ... 1468566001
Who would have guessed this?
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
lorca
Posts: 2358
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: The Axarquia, Spain

Post by lorca »

OK Ian/Irene, maybe I was wrong – maybe you are not being deliberately obtuse but really are unable/unwilling/incapable of understanding what some of us are saying. Take your time, try to read the posts more carefully, then maybe you won’t misinterpret, misquote and go off on irrelevant tangents.

Then there’s just a chance that we could agree to disagree and leave it at that
If not now, when?
User avatar
Jimbo
Posts: 3582
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:41 am
Location: Charente Maritime

Post by Jimbo »

lorca wrote:It’s about a vision of the sort of country I want to belong to. I am (or was) proud to be British, but I’m also proud to be a European. I liked it that my country was part of a group of nations that has shared values – of human rights, free healthcare, multiculturalism, protection of the environment, consumer and workplace rights, co-operation in academic, scientific and educational projects etc etc. The EU is far from perfect, but its values differ greatly from those of our “new” potential trading partners such as China and the US, who care little for such things.
lorca expresses very movingly the feelings of many of us who left the UK to forge new lives in Europe - and this was possible because, at that time, the UK was a member of the EU. It's always given me immense pleasure, when travelling to other member states, that it's not immediately obvious when I'm in a new country - no border controls, no guards, no visas, same currency. This - to me - is the future and I will seek French citizenship (if they'll have me) to ensure this positive state of affairs continues. You can have your country back.

It's my belief that the UK was never really 'in Europe' and the referendum result proves this point. From Thatcher onwards, successive UK governments have tried to cherry pick the things they wanted from EU and discard the rest. In the past 20 years, UK politicians and the press have conducted a relentless and tawdry campaign against the EU, even when they were enjoying the fruits of membership.

And the crack Brexit Tory team (outers all) picked to lead the charge (the awful Davies, Fox and Johnson) are likely to continue with this belligerent approach and will have a real risk being rebuffed. And then what will become of this little offshore island and its truly obnoxious politicians living so firmly in the past?
casasantoestevo wrote:... you are not correct in saying that the Tories are wanting to leave the EU. If you recall the exPM and the new PM wanted to stay in the EU. Now we have the new PM saying that Article 50 may be delayed until there is full agreement with Scotland.
If the events of the past couple of months haven't taught us anything else , it's surely not to trust ever again what lying and self-interested politicians tell us. If Cameron had really wanted to stay in the EU, he wouldn't have set up a referendum that presented a real risk of this happening. If May had really wanted to stay in the EU, she would have campaigned strongly for that result, instead of sitting quietly on the fence and dropping the odd sly hint that she was sympathetic to some of Brexit's aims - the better placed to seize the leadership if it all went tits up.
Jim
Post Reply