Another new law!

For topics that are specific to Portugal, please go here.
Codliveroil
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Algarve
Contact:

Another new law!

Post by Codliveroil »

I went to our local co-op yesterday to buy my usual bottles of Roundup to spray all my paving, calcada, driveways and adjacent scrub land to aid strimming later.

Nope, can't buy it anymore since November 2016 unless I attend a 25 hour course, in the Portuguese language, at a cost of Euros 115.00. I didn't read all of the posted notice but I am pretty sure that it went on to say that even when you have obtained the certificate you still have to jump through some more hoops before you can start to apply the the product.

Do you know if you can still buy Roundup over the counter in Spain?

It's law that we have to keep a 50 meter radius around our houses free of scrub, to prevent fires, weed killer is an important aspect of controlling this scrub and adhering to the law.

This @#$%%$#@ government!
FelicityA
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:54 pm
Location: Cotswolds
Contact:

Post by FelicityA »

Well this http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health ... 7820151113 is the latest news on the subject so take heart, they may well backtrack. My husband is a keen user of it on paths but I hate it as he is always inadvertently killing my plants - the smallest drop in the wind (and he always swears he has been ultra careful :roll:) has caused the untimely death of raspberry, strawberry and lavender plants in our garden.
User avatar
French Cricket
Posts: 3058
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: French Pyrénées
Contact:

Post by French Cricket »

You don't need toxic chemicals like Roundup. Mix white vinegar with salt, and add a little soap (washing up liquid is fine - it's just to help the mixture adhere to the leaves), and spray. Simple, kinder and cheaper.
RichardHenshall
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:06 pm
Location: Luz, Algarve

Re: Another new law!

Post by RichardHenshall »

Codliveroil wrote:... Do you know if you can still buy Roundup over the counter in Spain? ...
AFAIK, you can still buy the retail versions in Portugal, just not the (stronger & cheaper) professional versions.
tavi
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:07 pm
Location: Algarve

Post by tavi »

back in July 2015....Dr Robin Mesnage of the Department of Medical and Molecular Genetics at Kings College in London presented data showing Roundup is 1,000 times more toxic than glyphosate alone. He said, “Glyphosate is everywhere throughout our food chain - in our food and water. The lack of data on toxicity of glyphosate is not proof of safety and these herbicides cannot be considered safe without proper testing. We know Roundup, the commercial name of glyphosate-based herbicides, contains many other chemicals, which when mixed together are 1,000 times more toxic than glyphosate on its own.” source: http://www.gmwatch.org/news/latest-news ... n-expert

European scientists say it's safe....and Monsanto agrees - well they would, wouldn't they?

Which scientist should we believe?

:roll:
FelicityA
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:54 pm
Location: Cotswolds
Contact:

Post by FelicityA »

French Cricket wrote:You don't need toxic chemicals like Roundup. Mix white vinegar with salt, and add a little soap (washing up liquid is fine - it's just to help the mixture adhere to the leaves), and spray. Simple, kinder and cheaper.
Does that work on horsetail, FC?
User avatar
French Cricket
Posts: 3058
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: French Pyrénées
Contact:

Post by French Cricket »

I'm not sure what horsetail is, felicity :oops: , but it works on all the persistent weeds in our gravel paths, including creeping buttercup and plantain. I've never used (and wouldn't use) chemicals so I can't compare, but I'd find it difficult to believe that anything would do better - you see the leaves die off within 12 hours, then the roots a bit later.

Lots of stuff about it on Google.
Codliveroil
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Algarve
Contact:

Post by Codliveroil »

French Cricket wrote:You don't need toxic chemicals like Roundup. Mix white vinegar with salt, and add a little soap (washing up liquid is fine - it's just to help the mixture adhere to the leaves), and spray. Simple, kinder and cheaper.
I will try this on the driveway and paving when it stops rainng, thank you.

Will this kill Blackberry Brambles? Roundup hardly touches these, in the past I have to use Gorlon.

Then we have this other thorny Ivy type stuff with dark shiny leaves, thinner more pointed leaves than Ivy, spreads and climbs up our olive and cork oaks very quickly, no idea what it's called? Both Roundup and Gorlon have little effect.
User avatar
CSE
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: Galicia

Post by CSE »

i use a strimmer to clear the edges of the abandoned land next to ours. Works very well no need to spray any nasty fluids.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
User avatar
French Cricket
Posts: 3058
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: French Pyrénées
Contact:

Post by French Cricket »

Codliveroil wrote: Will this kill Blackberry Brambles? Roundup hardly touches these, in the past I have to use Gorlon.
No :cry:. The only thing that will (eventually) kill brambles is constant strimming of the cut-back plant as it regrows - in time it will weaken and give up. We inherited millions of the things on our land - we deliberately leave quite a lot as they're fantastic habitats for birds and insects, but where we have needed to clear them, that's what we've done. And continue to do :wink:
Codliveroil
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Algarve
Contact:

Post by Codliveroil »

French Cricket wrote:You don't need toxic chemicals like Roundup. Mix white vinegar with salt, and add a little soap (washing up liquid is fine - it's just to help the mixture adhere to the leaves), and spray. Simple, kinder and cheaper.
I want to give it a try. What ratio of salt to vinegar and do you use it neat or do you add water? How much soap in say 5 litres?

Thanks.
Gordo
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: UK, Spain, Ireland

Post by Gordo »

French Cricket wrote:You don't need toxic chemicals like Roundup. Mix white vinegar with salt, and add a little soap (washing up liquid is fine - it's just to help the mixture adhere to the leaves), and spray. Simple, kinder and cheaper.
Ouch FC... that's a fair old sweeping statement!

I'm neither a gardener or a scientist but I've previously had someone with a degree in horticulture explain some key differences and misperceptions between glyphosate based herbicides (e.g. roundup) and certain alternative herbicides (e.g. vinegar/soap-based recipes).

We bought a place with half-acre piece of land overrun with weeds hence I sought some advice at the time.

Now I have to cheat and look at some notes I made on it a while back.... I'm pasting just a few snippets of info here, in no particular order as the whole thing isn't particularly reader-friendly.

I'm not looking to argue on merits/ethics of any particular method, only to open a few minds which could easily be closed
after reading your post.

I stress these are someone elses words so please don't shoot the messenger! I'd suggest anyone with an environmental interest do their own due diligence and make up their own mind as to what's best for them.

In terms of toxicity, glyphosate (40-50% of roundup) is apparently less acutely toxic than table salt or aspirin.

Both vinegar/soap-based solutions and glyphosate will kill anything without discrimination. The "fear" of glyphosate is it's much more capable of spilling outside its target area if not applied professionally (spray drift).

Many vinegar-based alternatives use detergents/liquids/soaps within their recipes many of which will have toxic properties and others (anti-bacterial products) will kill off beneficial bacterial products within the soil.

Alternative solutions (e.g vinegar/soap) are considered to be contact herbicides i.e. they "burn" whatever they touch sometimes in as little as 15 mins always within 24 hours. Although home-made recipes may kill whatever foliage they touch, they're unlikely to be capable of killing roots (so will need re-application).

Gyphosate-based products are systemic herbicides all of which are slightly modified plant hormones which is what allows them to be able to move completely around a plant before killing it in it's entirety. For this reason it's best applied to weeds when they're in an active vegetative state of growth (typically early spring March/April time).

Vinegar alone is apparently deemed to be eco-friendly even though it's capable of causing skin/eye irritation (even blindness!!!).

Anyone for fish 'n' chips?

.
Happiness is a journey not a destination,
So work like you don’t need the money,
Love like you’ve never been hurt,
and Dance like no one’s watching…
Codliveroil
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:10 pm
Location: Algarve
Contact:

Post by Codliveroil »

Thanks Gordo, exactly what I was going to say.....LOL

I wish you could get these facts over to the Morons that have introduced this ban here in Portugal!

I know Spain don't always stick to "Brussels" rules and regs, like smoking in bars and public places in some parts, so I was wondering if one can still buy Roundup over the counter in Spain, do you know?
Gordo
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: UK, Spain, Ireland

Post by Gordo »

You mentioned "scrubland" but regardless of size of area I'd suggest you buy it online from UK and have it delivered. I'll pm some specifics based on my own experience as at the time I bought what I bought the buyer was supposed to have a license in order to use it.

You mentioned buying roundup from co-op but you'll get far better value if you can buy the stuff commercial growers use rather than the amateur gardener stuff you're referring to (it's a bit like comparing scrumpy to alcohol free lager).

As regards it being "cheaper" to use a vinegar recipe I would very much doubt that although I accept for a one-off douse on a garden path if one already has the stuff under the kitchen sink then no major harm done.

For my half-acre 5L of Roundup Probiactive 450 (for example) would cost about £50+vat so say £60.

For what pro-gardeners would call a "standard nozzle" sprayer I'd actually only need 1 litre for one application, diluted with 50 litres of water, so it would actually cost me about £12 (free water!).

By comparison, if 1 litre of vinegar cost me say £1 then I'll need to spend a lot more to get my 51 litre mixture. If it's neat vinegar then that'd be £51 !!!!

Worse still although the vinegar would quickly kill my foliage it wont kill the entire plant therefore I'd need to repeat the exercise and wouldn't be able to reuse the affected area for x amount of time. On the other hand my probiactive will kill everything in one go (if done at the right time in the annual cycle) and if I were a farmer (which I'm not) I'd be able to sow new crops in the same place within 48 hours (proving glyphosate isn't the killer so many make it out to be).

I rest my case m'lud...

.
Happiness is a journey not a destination,
So work like you don’t need the money,
Love like you’ve never been hurt,
and Dance like no one’s watching…
aasta
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:17 pm
Location: Pe da Serra, Portugal

Post by aasta »

Have you realized: That Roundup is a serious poison to plants, humans (using this product is a dangerous health hazard for the userand children palying nereby etc!!!!), water system, animals.......lots of studies on its toxcity available on the internet....so why anyone would even contemplate using such a product is beyond me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sure it is more labor intensive to use products which are not hazaradous to everyone and everything.....it is an awareness factor......Sorry...do not wish to preach or offend here, but it really amazes me that people still wish to use this stuff.....
aasta
Post Reply