Opinions / advices on starting a B&B in the Cote d'azur

[Georgi]

Hello, I am happy to join the forum and hopefully learn a lot of things from you regarding my future challenge of starting a B&B.
I am currently living in Montreal, Canada with my family and planning to relocate to France. I am thinking of targeting the Riviera area and looking for a place near Grasse, in order to be close to Nice and Cannes for the tourists. Since I don't know France at all, only been there as a tourist myself, I'd really like to hear your opinions on that area and if you think a B&B there could at least be able to bring income as one full time job, so I can take care, and my wife to look for another job. All of us speak french, my wife and the kids fluently, me not that well since I use english in my current occupation, but I can manage.
Thank you in advance for sharing some thoughts, I would really appreciate

[La Chouette]

Welcome Georgi! I'm sure you'll find a wealth of information here, especially when you start reading some of the threads in the B&B section.

We're nowhere near Grasse but I'm sure others will be along to comment. If you search for B&B accommodation as a holiday maker, you'll see how well served your chosen area already is.

My 3 cents of thoughts, before I rush out for an afternoon with French embroiderers is:

• Never underestimate how long it may take to get going if you start from scratch (rather than buying a going concern)
  French administration is there to make life tricky for you!
  This life is hard work so be prepared for that.

Bon courage,

Jan

[Ecosse]

Hello and welcome to Lay My Hat

While I can't comment on your choice of location (though went there once and it was very nice), I might be able to give you some practical advice about setting up a B&B (aka chambre d'hôtes)

We set ours up two years ago in the Alps and love running it. However, there were a number of unforseens,as well as a few 'forseens' that you have to bear in mind if you have kids. Here are some of the main ones:

1) If you're not planning on buying outright, mortgages can be hard to come by. Furthermore, the bank will only give you a mortgage based on the business's current turnover... i.e. there are no mortgages for doing up a place to open as a chambre d'hôtes. The chiffre d'affaires were very low for the place we bought - well below the potential, but the bank weren't interested in our projected income so we had to raise a substantial deposit to bridge the gap. Having said that, we're happy with the bank's decision as we've never worried that we won't turn over enough business to pay them back.
2) French are fond of their red tape.. it's not easy running a business here! The suite of taxes are something else and François Hollande's government is not on the side of small businesses. A good accountant is a must.
3) To avoid the fire reg. 'normes' most people offering chambre d'hôtes stick to the 5 bedrooms AND 15 bed max... which is on the limit of providing anything more than a hobby income. We manage it, but only by being in a very popular (nearly) all round tourist area... and by renting out the peak winter weeks to large ski groups for a premium rate. We are also the only gîte / chambre d'hôtes with a kitchen, so we appeal to families and, in the low season, workers.
4) It will take over your life. We went in with our eyes open (we'd both worked in a busy gîte beforehand) but even so, it is tiring to do it day in day out. In the summer I feel guilty that the kids don't get as much attention as I would like, and there are very few opportunities to just head off for the day (we managed one day trip to Annecy last summer - it was the only day with no changeovers or new arrivals). On the plus side, French childcare is excellent, and our eldest thoroughly enjoyed summer camp, which only cost us 16€ a day!

I hope this helps - I'm sure others will have more to add. Good luck with your plans!

[CSE]

Welcome to the forum. You do not say if you and the family have EU passports. If not then there could be visas and things to get over.
No matter what your passport is this website is handy to know all the ins and outs of emigration.
http://france.angloinfo.com/

[Georgi]

Hello, thanks a lot for so many nice advices just overnight!
Yes I agree it takes time away that you can normally spend with kids, that's true. Our kids are 2 and 9 year old girls so we will also have to look for schools and kindergarten.
One thing I am curious about, Gitemontjoly you guys mention you are so booked that you only had one day free in the summer, and still you say it is not more than a hobby income...I always thought a B&B can easily replace a job income. My sister and her partner are managing a B&B in Florence and it's amazing, both of them are occupied only with it, and it is good for the whole family to live on. Well fact is Florence has 15 Mill tourists per year, but I believe French Riviera also has a similar amount

[French Cricket]

Hi Georgi and welcome

I can only reiterate what Gitemontjoly has said - it's almost impossible for a family to make ends meet just on the income of a chambre d'hôte activity, even if it does have the maximum permitted 5 bedrooms. You'd need nigh on 100% occupancy all year, and that is extremely unlikely - you might pick up some weekend bookings in winter but not much else. Many places on the Côte d'Azur close in the winter as it's not worth staying open. The market in France is very different from that in Florence.

Property prices around Grasse are astronomical, so unless you have a large wad of capital you're going to need finance - which you'll find difficult (and repayments would put a large strain on your finances). Top level chambres d'hôtes in that area will charge around 100 euros a night for a room; to buy a property that would support that level, with 5 letting rooms, you'd be looking at at least a million euros.

I've done B&B in the UK and then chambres d'hotes in France, for around 19 years altogether; this is my last year and our accommodation from here on will be self catering. I've loved every minute of it, but it's never something I would do to make money - rather, it's a lifestyle, and it's always been supported by other income (I don't have kids - there are just the 2 of us - and I'd say that because of the time and personal commitment required it would be really hard if I did). I'd calculate that my hourly rate over the last 5 years, since I've been in France, has been around 35 centimes an hour . You need to do it because you enjoy hospitality and love meeting people.

I hope you don't think this is too negative! It's intended to be realistic rather than negative; so many people go into this with rose-tinted glasses, with dreams of wafting about talking to guests around the pool, and realise too late that actually it's bloody hard work, from early morning to late at night. A couple (from Provence) bought a 5 bedroomed chambre d'hôtes in our village - one that came with a phenomenal reputation, featured in all the glossies and chic guides - and within 3 months they'd put it back on the market because they just didn't want to put in the hours that it took to keep it going and realised that they were working for a song. That was 3 years ago; they've now dropped the price by 200,000 euros and it's still on the market. They're still trading, but reluctantly.

[louloup]

I agree with everything that has been said so far. My chambres d'hôtes trade is very seasonal and that suits me, but I work my socks off during that season and when I add it all up the hourly rate is pathetic. It is an awful lot of work, but not a big enough enterprise to justify having staff.

As well as the work, you need to factor in just how much money you will pay in social charges etc. That is what scuppers most calculations, no matter what type of business you choose, social charges take a big slice before you start to factor in all the running expenses.

Its not impossible, but I have another couple of income streams and that is what keeps me afloat.

I do the chambres d'hôtes because I really do love cooking and I like seeing the house full of people enjoying themselves. I like living in a house that is way too big for two people and it helps it pay its way a bit.

[louloup]

I agree with everything that has been said so far. My chambres d'hôtes trade is very seasonal and that suits me, but I work my socks off during that season and when I add it all up the hourly rate is pathetic. It is an awful lot of work, but not a big enough enterprise to justify having staff.

As well as the work, you need to factor in just how much money you will pay in social charges etc. That is what scuppers most calculations, no matter what type of business you choose, social charges take a big slice before you start to factor in all the running expenses.

Its not impossible, but I have another couple of income streams and that is what keeps me afloat.

I do the chambres d'hôtes because I really do love cooking and I like seeing the house full of people enjoying themselves. I like living in a house that is way too big for two people and it helps it pay its way a bit.

[Ecosse]

One thing I am curious about, Gitemontjoly you guys mention you are so booked that you only had one day free in the summer, and still you say it is not more than a hobby income...I always thought a B&B can easily replace a job income. My sister and her partner are managing a B&B in Florence and it's amazing, both of them are occupied only with it, and it is good for the whole family to live on. Well fact is Florence has 15 Mill tourists per year, but I believe French Riviera also has a similar amount

Ah, sorry, a bit of misunderstanding - we weren't so booked out we only had one day off, what I meant was for the whole of July and August, there was only one day when we could confidently leave the gite for the whole day. Due to July's exceptional heatwave, we struggled to fill rooms (people would phone up, desperate to escape to the 'cooler mountains', only to find we were hotter than Provence), but, even if we'd finished all the other jobs (breakfast, cleaning rooms, washing, drying and ironing, buying new supplies, etc.) we couldn't just head off for hours, in case we missed an 'off the streeter'.

FC is right, it's very hard to support a family by running a chambre d'hôtes. It CAN be done, though (so long as you're happy with working for virtually nothing)... but you need a combination of a lot of on-the-ground research to find the right property... as well as a good dose of luck.

Before we took the plunge, we visited several (ski) areas off season to get a proper feel for them. Most were dead... not places where you'd want to bring up a family, others had the choice of either a summer or a winter market, meaning you'd always be relying on that one season for your yearly income, and others were either too expensive and/or saturated. Our luck came in the form of arriving in Saint Gervais and asking where the nearest gite with a kitchen was, only to be met with blank looks by the tourist office staff. Furthermore, there was a suitable property for sale and, crucially, a sector of the market (tourers, families, extreme event participants and workers looking for a place to stay for less than a week) not adequately served by the hotels and apartments in Saint Gervais. We're also one of only a handful of properties large enough to accommodate large families /group of friends for a winter ski trip, meaning we can rent out the whole gite for double the chambre d'hôtes price.

I can't say for sure, but the Cote d'Azur always struck me as a place for week/fortnight holidaymakers... do they want to stay in a chambre d'hôtes when à holiday home is cheaper? If your research shows that, take a look at some less well known areas - you may find yourself a gem.

Like French Cricket, I don't want to sound negative, just realistic. If you find the right place, and you're happy with the lifestyle, you'll love running a chambre d'hôtes !

[Georgi]

Hello, thanks a lot for the answers, there's many valid points that you bring up and that makes me think over some details. I totally agree location and luck are crucial, and also thougt about what was mentioned for the people who go to the Riviera. Maybe mist of them stay fo a long period, nit considering beaches are
Not that attractive like Greece and Spain, I always thought once you visit the area you need to go to Monaco, Cannes, Saint-Tropez etc. just like I did the time I was there. Maybe a B&B in Nice is a better option....
The other area I looked at is Lyon and Burgundy, where I also think there's potential. I don't have experience in this, I am working a 9-5 job in a Lighting Company, but I am renting some apartments here in Montreal and have experience with long term rentals, meaning all sorts of issues like plumbing, repainting, electricity, even exterminating rats and bed bugs. One of the things that makes me want to rerurn to Europe is family, friends, and also the climate here is 7 months winter. Of course starting a gite and having to work for another job will not be physically possible for me and this is why I really want to hear these facts from you before I decide to sell everything and move