Buying in Italy.

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Hells Bells
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Buying in Italy.

Post by Hells Bells »

We seem to spend an increasing amount of time there, and buying a bigger property in our French ski resort is probably not really an option unless we move away from the UK altogether. We have an opportunity to buy a 'work in progress' in the Piemontese mountains, between Cuneo and Savona. It already has a new roof, mains gas boiler and rendering done, so it is wamr and waterproof, but needs more work.
What are the pitfalls to look out for? It is owned by an English couple.
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pambon
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Post by pambon »

HelenB what sort of pitfalls are you referring to? Legal, during the purchasing process or in living in Italy in general?

Not knowing the area I cannot help on that but although I have read some stories of the difficulties in buying property here it has not been my experience, but maybe this is because I am also an Italian national.

I should have thought that the current English owners could have advised you on any doubts and queries you may have.

The only advice I would give (and this is NOT your case) would be not to buy property that is registered to multiple owners. The Public Notary should always check these things out before exchanging contracts but last minute hold ups are common when the parties concerned decide not to agree on the purchase price....The Notary must also check out mortgages and loans etc on the property.

Having a surveyor to look the place over is not in common usage here down our way (maybe it is up there). When we bought our rental in 2005 I just got in the civil engineer to give it a quick check, while it was still occupied by the 'ex-owners', so we could begin to draw up the plans for renovating the place. However, if I were buying a stand alone property, being English I would probably get one in!

The area you are considering is lovely and I must admit that I have thought much about buying or renting a small place there to escape the heat of the summer here. My son knows it well as he goes sking and climbing there. Maybe I can rent from you!!
Hells Bells
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Post by Hells Bells »

I've spoken more with the owners last night, they've been advising others in the area for some time on buying property so should know what they are doing. They were hoping to update the property properly before selling on, but ill-health has forced their hand, so they are buying another smaller more manageable property. This one is 5 bedroom, with potential for a further 2 by converting the hayloft, which could be let separately. The plumbing has already been put in place for this. We may be considering a joint purchase with some friends, and will need more bathrooms in the main house too, and there are some windows to replace.
Village is thriving apparently. I'm liking it more and more with every email exchange. We just have to find some time to go and view.
ianthy
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Post by ianthy »

Hi

We purchased in 2005 and we had the property surveyed and valued to check that it was worth what we were paying for it.

It would also be worth getting a few quotes from builders/gemeotras to understand the cost of actually doing the work that you would like to do. You will need to check the permits that already exist for work on the property and if there are no permits then what permits would be required and the costs. Italian bureaucracy is infamous for taking along time and presenting many conflicting views.

Take your time and carry out your due diligence carefully. English owners will make the discussions easier but don't allow this to distract from doing all of the necessary checks carefully. Our first attempt at buying was also from English owners and they failed to reveal an important fact - they said that the property was registered for habitable occupation. In fact it was not and thankfully we found out this fact very late but before we signed any docs. The cost to us would have been €20k.

Our 2nd attempt also buying from English owners uncovered that they had declared themselves resident when they bought the house, thereby paying less purchase tax. They were in fact living in Herts, the notaio found out and delayed the sale until he could find an asset to leverage - in the end their parents who owned a house in Italy had to sign and confirm that they with the notaio would take responsibility to pay the tax due. An important point as the debt generally can stay with the asset eg the house that we were buying.

Happy to respond to further Q's.
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Post by Hells Bells »

THank you Ian, they have had all the permissions apparently, but just haven't been able to do the work. I will however be checking everything thoroughly.
ianthy
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Post by ianthy »

HelenB wrote:THank you Ian, they have had all the permissions apparently, but just haven't been able to do the work. I will however be checking everything thoroughly.
Check the permits carefully - they have limited period for the work to be carried out/completed - usually 3 years after they have been issued. If not an application needs to be submitted again.
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Post by Hells Bells »

OK, they only bought the house last year, so hopefully all ok, although it will give us a bit of a spurt to get everything we need to do. Needs at least 2 more bathrooms and convert the hayloft to 2 more bedrooms and bathroom (although plumbing is already in place for this).
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pambon
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Post by pambon »

ianthy wrote:
HelenB wrote:THank you Ian, they have had all the permissions apparently, but just haven't been able to do the work. I will however be checking everything thoroughly.
Check the permits carefully - they have limited period for the work to be carried out/completed - usually 3 years after they have been issued. If not an application needs to be submitted again.
You are lucky, down here it is just two years.

Ianthy, was it you who discovered these 'discrepancies' or the Notary? Usually this is sort of digging around is done by a really good Notary. Or rather should be.....
ianthy
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Post by ianthy »

pambon wrote:
ianthy wrote:
HelenB wrote:THank you Ian, they have had all the permissions apparently, but just haven't been able to do the work. I will however be checking everything thoroughly.
Check the permits carefully - they have limited period for the work to be carried out/completed - usually 3 years after they have been issued. If not an application needs to be submitted again.
You are lucky, down here it is just two years.

Ianthy, was it you who discovered these 'discrepancies' or the Notary? Usually this is sort of digging around is done by a really good Notary. Or rather should be.....
In the first case of the property not being deruralised - we discovered this at the signing of the compromesso. The paperwork was missing and never seemed to arrive despite the English owners insisting they had completed the process many years ago. When we got to the signing we asked the geometra dealing with the paperwork to check with the comune and they confirmed that the property had not been deruralised and the likely cost. Shame of it was that when the owners bought the house, the cost to deruralisation was less than £200 (in lira). We walked away as it was clear that they were dishonest and our confidence was lost.

Second case of the tax was highlighted by our lawyer when they checked the paperwork. They in turn informed the notaio who had handled previously handled the purchase of the property. Of course he was very angry as they had lied about being resident and then had the cheek to come to him a few years later to sell the property.
Hells Bells
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Post by Hells Bells »

It is probably quite likely that we won't be renting out this one at all. Although not quite time to retire, the other couple will be planning it as a semi-permanent base.
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pambon
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Post by pambon »

ianthy wrote:
pambon wrote:
ianthy wrote: Check the permits carefully - they have limited period for the work to be carried out/completed - usually 3 years after they have been issued. If not an application needs to be submitted again.
You are lucky, down here it is just two years.

Ianthy, was it you who discovered these 'discrepancies' or the Notary? Usually this is sort of digging around is done by a really good Notary. Or rather should be.....
In the first case of the property not being deruralised - we discovered this at the signing of the compromesso. The paperwork was missing and never seemed to arrive despite the English owners insisting they had completed the process many years ago. When we got to the signing we asked the geometra dealing with the paperwork to check with the comune and they confirmed that the property had not been deruralised and the likely cost. Shame of it was that when the owners bought the house, the cost to deruralisation was less than £200 (in lira). We walked away as it was clear that they were dishonest and our confidence was lost.

Second case of the tax was highlighted by our lawyer when they checked the paperwork. They in turn informed the notaio who had handled previously handled the purchase of the property. Of course he was very angry as they had lied about being resident and then had the cheek to come to him a few years later to sell the property.
That was bad work on the part of the Notary who should have asked for residency certificates and tax papers.....
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Post by Hells Bells »

Well we've got as far as sorting out a weekend trip next month to go and view it. I just wish we could have managed to go earlier.
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Post by Hells Bells »

Spoke to the owners last night, they have another 18 months to complete the renovation work that needed permission. Although it does look like the wiring is in need of attention, they assured us that it does work and doesn't trip, and that they do own all of the building and surrounding land.
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pambon
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Post by pambon »

HelenB wrote:Spoke to the owners last night, they have another 18 months to complete the renovation work that needed permission. Although it does look like the wiring is in need of attention, they assured us that it does work and doesn't trip, and that they do own all of the building and surrounding land.
Helen ask to see valid documentation and don't take their word for it. If they are honest they will supply all the certificates. Otherwise check it out at the Comune.
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Post by Hells Bells »

They have already told us they have the documentation and that it will be available to see when we visit.
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