A22, Toll road April 2011

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tavi
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Post by tavi »

to be clear....transponders are available which are NOT linked to the car reg - you HIRE one. :roll:
RichardHenshall
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Post by RichardHenshall »

tavi wrote:... I notice the two options are for 5 "working" days or 3 days. Maybe you can choose the two together thereby making a week. ...
IIRC, the 3 day is for unlimited/unmetered travel within 3 days and is limited to 6 trips per year, where the 5 day is a pre-payment system linked to your (non-Portuguese) registration number from which actual toll use is deducted (with unused balance refundable). I don't see why you can't string 2 or more 5 day periods together to cover your requirements, or simply set another one up if/when required (for those who over-winter, for example).
tavi wrote:... to be clear....transponders are available which are NOT linked to the car reg - you HIRE one. ...
You can also buy a Pré-pago Anónimo transponder for a Portuguese car. I have seen postings on another forum which suggest that this can be used with a foreign registered car but can find no official evidence in support. There is no technical reason why not and the tolls will still be deducted but you might still be illegal. :roll:
RichardHenshall
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Post by RichardHenshall »

casasantoestevo wrote:... if the internet is to be believed ...
Where do I start? :lol: :lol:
casasantoestevo wrote:RichardH; the web page not being in English and in Spanish is another illustration of why this whole affair is not defensible. Interesting that you have picked up on one small part of my posting. However your reply just illustrates more bad press. I find it surprising that the opposition party has found the audacity to criticised this toll system. Were they not in power when the system was originally introduced, in the north, a few years ago?

Another example of the tourist industry shooting itself in the foot is the fact that a lot of the rental car companies do not have transponders installed in their fleets.
I agree that the system isn't perfect and said as much. I agree that the lack of information in foreign languages is unhelpful but it's not insurmountable. However, I prefer to make a study of what can be done rather than what can't be done. If it involves an investment in hassle, use of online translators etc, so be it. The biggest problem, so far, with these electronic tolls is that there are different rules for different situations, so giving general advice is virtually impossible.

I have read your postings (that you linked to above) and can see how the 'contributions' from the Spanish press have probably confused matters more than they are already.

You are faced with trying to understand the systems for (at least) two different situations and what you know about one does not necessarily apply to the other.

If you or your neighbours wish to visit Portugal, go to Porto airport etc in a non-Portuguese car you have to pre-pay. There are various ways you can pre-pay (some with and some without a transponder) but pre-pay you must. End of.

However if your guests fly into Porto and hire a Portuguese registered car the rules are quite different, mostly based on post-payment. The only pre-payment system for Portuguese cars involves a transponder. It is currently impossible to pre-pay without a transponder or to post-pay online, so your clients cannot pay their departing tolls when returning to Porto without relying on the goodwill of someone with access to a Portuguese post office or PayShop. All because the Portuguese car hire companies are so bloody-minded that they won't invest €25 per car to fit transponders. :twisted: If they'd just get on and do it none of us would have anything to talk about. Car hire companies are quick enough to charge renters afterwards for damage to their cars, the wrong amount of petrol and so on, why not the tolls too?
tavi
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Post by tavi »

This says you can use the pre-paid anonymous transponder for a foreign reg car. You pay a deposit, valid for 30 days, if you don't return it, you lose your deposit and keep the transponder.
[/url]http://www.ctt.pt/fectt/wcmservlet/ctt/ ... rario.html
[url]

Also, here's the visitportugal site. Click on download brochure. Not a bad resume in English, of the options. For Faro visitors, it seems you can buy this option at Faro airport (as well as online). The Post Office site hasn't yet updated its page to include Faro airport.

In the Guestbook words of a client (from my dayjob :)) who drove down in a GB car last week: ......I cannot however imagine a more difficult and absurd toll system as has been devised for the motorway
tavi
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Post by tavi »

tavi
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Post by tavi »

http://www.ctt.pt/fectt/wcmservlet/ctt/ ... rario.html

Gad, keep messing up the links. the above is the link to the temporary, anonymous transponder.

Need to lie down in a darkened room.
RichardHenshall
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Post by RichardHenshall »

Yes, it would seem so but they do seem to stress the rental and temporary aspect of the device for non-Portuguese cars, where the Pré-pago Anónimo for Portuguese cars is definitely sold as a permanent re-chargeable solution.

It's unclear just how the rental is charged - is it deducted from the available balance at 6€ for the first week and 1,50€ for each week thereafter (up to 30 days), or simply from the deposit on return? If the latter, then it is effectively a purchase but if the former it would be like carrying water in a leaky bucket.

I imagine that in usual Portuguese fashion there will be lots of paperwork for the rental contract, where the purchase of a Pré-pago Anónimo is relatively paper-free. I certainly haven't signed anything or given them any information about myself to get one and I had to pay in cash as the post office doesn't seem to take plastic. :roll:

Maybe they're trying to disguise the availability of an anonymous system for longer-stay (30+ days) non-Portuguese registered cars. After all, why would anyone want that? 8) :wink:
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

Richard, you have raised many point so I have broken your posting down into the sections I would like to answer. I hope you do not mind.
RichardHenshall wrote: I agree that the system isn't perfect and said as much. I agree that the lack of information in foreign languages is unhelpful but it's not insurmountable. However, I prefer to make a study of what can be done rather than what can't be done. If it involves an investment in hassle, use of online translators etc, so be it. The biggest problem, so far, with these electronic tolls is that there are different rules for different situations, so giving general advice is virtually impossible.


You may be prepared, but you have to be honest your average Jose or Joe or who ever is not going to be.
RichardHenshall wrote:……. 'contributions' from the Spanish press have probably confused matters more than they are already.
Please it is not just the Spanish press giving the whole thing a poor write up are they? Portuguese press say everything is rosy in the garden. Including the British newspaper covering the Algarve.

RichardHenshall wrote:If you or your neighbours wish to visit Portugal, go to Porto airport etc in a non-Portuguese car you have to pre-pay. There are various ways you can pre-pay (some with and some without a transponder) but pre-pay you must. End of.

Actually there is a way to use a route taking mainly tolled roads with tollbooths. Then threading you way around an industrial site.
RichardHenshall wrote: However if your guests fly into Porto and hire a Portuguese registered car the rules are quite different, mostly based on post-payment. The only pre-payment system for Portuguese cars involves a transponder. It is currently impossible to pre-pay without a transponder or to post-pay online, so your clients cannot pay their departing tolls when returning to Porto without relying on the goodwill of someone with access to a Portuguese post office or PayShop. All because the Portuguese car hire companies are so bloody-minded that they won't invest €25 per car to fit transponders. :twisted: If they'd just get on and do it none of us would have anything to talk about. Car hire companies are quick enough to charge renters afterwards for damage to their cars, the wrong amount of petrol and so on, why not the tolls too?
But they are not aware of the toll system car hire companies are simply not informing those booking cars about the tolls. Maybe you think we should. However we do not know where are guests previous nights sleep was. And we are not going to ask either. I would say it is either down to the car hire companies to make their customers aware of the situation or the Government should give better publicity on how things should be paid.

Tavi (you can edit your posts if it goes wrong). I appreciate the link; I have actually tied to pre-purchase tickets on line. I wrote about it in the Slow Travel article. However for some reason it failed. However I only got an E-mail that it failed several days after I was due to use the toll roads. As far as I can tell if you are a resident in Portugal you do not have any choice other than rent a transponder. If you do like Richard has said the weekly cost soon mount up and if you are not using a SCUT road on a regular basis then it may not be worth having

I still cannot see the situation improving in the foreseeable future. In fact it could get worse if the Police start to fine drivers for non-payment.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
tavi
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Post by tavi »

Y
es, it would seem so but they do seem to stress the rental and temporary aspect of the device for non-Portuguese cars, where the Pré-pago Anónimo for Portuguese cars is definitely sold as a permanent re-chargeable solution.
Yes, I they do seem to, but |I wonder if that's simply because they were forced to find a system for holiday makers. Other than the rental cost, the whole deal is exactly the same in both cases so for anyone who visits regularly in their own car would be better buying one straight off. In both cases the credit lasts 90 days and the account can be reactivated by adding a new credit.

. A caução do dispositivo será devolvida, deduzida do valor do aluguer (calculado em semanas), se o cliente devolver o equipamento em boas condições acompanhado do talão de caução nos 30 dias subsequentes ao seu levantamento.
The deposit will be returned, minus the cost of the hire (calculated in weeks), if the client returns the equipment in good condition together with the deposit receipt within 30 days of its collection.


Se o cliente no prazo de 30 dias não devolver o equipamento, este fica como vendido, ficando o cliente com o dispositivo.
If the client does not return the equipment within 30 days, it will be considered sold, the transponder remaining with the client.

Just occurred to me, if you don't return the thing, and you have used all your credit, they can't charge a rental, they just use your deposit (€27.50) to pay for the transponder. In other words they would prefer you to buy it!
:?:
RichardHenshall
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Post by RichardHenshall »

casasantoestevo wrote:... I hope you do not mind. ...
Not at all.

As your response shows, I have made some assumptions about the (two) most likely situations that you or your clients face that are wrong! I thought I had read that it was impossible to get to Porto airport without using electronic toll roads, rather than just difficult.

Each of us wanting to use these roads must be very precise about what exactly our circumstances are before researching the solutions available to us. I agree that many cannot or will not be bothered.

I agree that much of the media (Portuguese, Spanish and the rest) are mainly fixated on the difficulties of the toll system, the stupidity of having tolls etc etc. and they have not proved to be useful in disseminating information to those who actually might want to pay! But then again, why should they? They are trying to sell papers not be a public information service. I suspect negativity sells more papers than positivity.

Sadly, there isn't a 'one size fits all' solution like a toll booth, though personally I think that is (or will eventually be) a good thing as I don't consider that it should be necessary in this age of technology.

Currently, the class of motorist least well served (imho) by the available systems is the occasional tourist who rents a Portuguese hire car. All because the Portuguese car hire companies are so bloody-minded that they won't invest 25€ per car to fit transponders.

All the car rental companies have to do is:

1. Fit a transponder, cost 25€, linked to direct debit on their own bank account.
2. Tell the client that there are electronic only tolls, which are (admittedly, poorly) signed. Hand their client a list of those roads, if they wish to be helpful. If the client uses those roads the car rental company will be charged and will in turn charge the client afterwards.
3. Wish the client 'a safe and pleasant stay'.
4. Charge the client afterwards, as appropriate.
casasantoestevo wrote:... As far as I can tell if you are a resident in Portugal you do not have any choice other than rent a transponder. ...
A Portuguese resident in a Portuguese car can get away with post-payment at a post office and might never need a transponder, though if a regular user I think he'd be crazy not to buy one.

If you meant to say non-resident, then you shouldn't have to rent/buy a transponder, as there are ways to pay without one. I can't guess why they didn't work for you.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

reading this all over again I might be coming across as anti tolls I am not I am against stupid ideas. :lol:

I do not understand the hire companies stance on this one bit. Some of the big boys are thankfully getting their act together now, by installing transponders.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
RichardHenshall
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Post by RichardHenshall »

I can't say that I'm particularly fond of the idea of tolls but if that's what it takes to support the country, so be it. I choose to pay tolls rather use the alternative routes.

I'm lucky that I can find a payment system that works for me when hiring a car in Portugal but sadly many (most) tourists won't be so lucky and may end up with fines as a result of the hire companies' inertia.

That's what really grates - the car rental companies rely principally on tourists yet aren't prepared to help them out because it will cost them 25€. Once. Instead they risk their clients being fined minimum 25€. For each journey. :twisted:
tavi
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Post by tavi »

I can't say that I'm particularly fond of the idea of tolls but if that's what it takes to support the country, so be it. I choose to pay tolls rather use the alternative routes.
Most of the tourists I've spoken to feel the same...they are fairly happy to pay the tolls, they are just finding it extremely difficult to figure out how.
Many of them have driven down in their own (GB) reg cars.

Some are in hire cars....one family the other day were having to work out which day they could take their trip down the coast using the motorway in order to still allow 48 hours to elapse in order to pay the toll before they got to the end of their holiday. They were only here for a week.

Avis already have transponders available. You pay €1.50 per day of your hire, up to a max of €15. Ok, fine....but some people only want to use the motorway once or twice!

It's just so user-unfriendly, and we're not even in the summer yet!
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Post by e-richard »

Some progress for rental cars:

The Portugal News

Maybe ??
** Richard
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RichardHenshall
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Post by RichardHenshall »

It doesn't seem like a solution that need have taken years to 'negotiate', does it?

Hopefully they will soon realise that charging 1,50€ +IVA per day is rubbing salt in the wound. At least regular visitors can opt out and use their own transponders, which should be cheaper.
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