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Portuguese VAT
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:40 pm
by Mountain Goat
Could anyone give me the name of VAT / IVA in Portugual? I'm trying to explain it to a Portuguese punter (non-rental sale).
Or, even better, how do I say in Portuguese - are you registered for VAT? It is an institution, and if they are registered, then we don't have to charge them UK VAT.
MG
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:19 pm
by CSE
VAT is IVA (just like in Spain).
I do not speak or write Portuguese, but unless the person has an international tax number you- them or both of you cannot claim the tax back.
I found this explanation, in English, about the tax system in Portugal.
http://info.portaldasfinancas.gov.pt/NR ... em_CEF.pdf
Page 76 gives the details of what international numbers are required. The section on IVA starts on page 74.
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:33 pm
by Mountain Goat
Many thanks for the link. It looks like IVA, but the full name of the tax isn't mentioned.....
It's standard practice in the EU that you don't charge VAT to another VAT-registered business as long as you have their VAT registration details - we do it every day. It sometimes takes a lot of explaining to an institution to ask whether they are registered, and, if so, what's their reg. no. I'm just struggling with the vocab.
MG
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:48 pm
by CSE
That is not our understanding of the VAT rules.
You have to pass on all the VAT. It is up to the purchaser to claim them back. But with no number you cannot.
Well this is what we found out when we wanted to purchase some items from Portugal.
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:16 pm
by Mountain Goat
Mmm, well, we've been doing it for 12 years without a murmur from the VAT people - that's just routine EU trading. We have to supply a summary every 1/4, listing out each transaction and each buyer's foreign VAT no.
Within the EU traders do not charge VAT to each other if they are both legal and registered for VAT/IVA. Selling outside the EU we don't charge VAT to anyone. Within the UK, we do charge VAT to each other, and then the buyer claims it back.
Sometimes personal punters just give us the VAT reg. no. of their institution (illegally) and we would then have to pay it ourselves, which we are trying to avoid in this case.
I still need to find out how to ask if they are registered for IVA, in Portuguese!
MG
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:51 pm
by Rocket Rab
Você já se inscreveu para o IVA? Qual é o seu número de IVA?
Are you registered for VAT? What is your VAT number?
Achtung: Google Translate!
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:59 pm
by RichardHenshall
In Portugal it is called IVA for short.
Everything here in Portugal seems to centre around the NUMERO FISCAL DE CONTRIBUINTE (for individuals) or NUMERO DE IDENTIFICAÇÃO DE PESSOA COLECTIVA (for a Company). Perhaps if you try asking for that you might get a result.
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:17 pm
by CSE
I don't how you are getting away with it either.
If you look at the EU website it states
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/ta ... dex_en.htm
VAT on goods moving between Member States
No frontier controls exist between Member States and therefore VAT on goods traded between EU Member States is not collected at the internal frontier between tax jurisdictions.
Goods supplied between taxable persons (or VAT registered traders) are exempted with a right to deduct the input VAT (zero-rated) on despatch if they are sent to another Member States to a person who can give his VAT number in another Member State. This is known as an "intra-Community supply". The VAT number can be checked using the VAT Information Exchange System (VIES).
The VAT due on the transaction is payable on acquisition of the goods by the taxable customer in the Member State where the goods arrive. This is known as "intra-Community acquisition". The customer accounts for any VAT due in his normal VAT return at the rate in force in the country of destination.
But check on the VIES as to if you can send goods to that company without VAT.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/viesquer.do
Ours comes up as not valid so we asked about this as we pay in Spain IVA. The answer seems to be you have to have a special international number.
But if you are getting away with it all the better.
Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:27 pm
by Mountain Goat
Thanks, RR, RichardH - that's helpful.
I & I, I don't get it. You've quoted:
Goods supplied between taxable persons (or VAT registered traders) are exempted with a right to deduct the input VAT (zero-rated) on despatch if they are sent to another Member States to a person who can give his VAT number in another Member State. This is known as an "intra-Community supply". The VAT number can be checked using the VAT Information Exchange System (VIES).
And I couldn't agree more. Unless I'm hallucinating, isn't that, in a nutshell, what I've been trying to say? I can only zero-rate the despatch, if I have their VAT number, and that's what I'm asking for from our Portuguese customers. If I don't get their number, or it's an incorrect registration, then I can't zero-rate the supply.
I'm not trying to 'get away' with anything!
MG
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:20 am
by Margaret
We have not dealt with Portugal on a b2b basis for a couple of years but the last time we did it was horrendous as far as VAT rules were concerned - different from the rest of the EU for some reason. I seem to remember having to send our UK company registration document and all sorts of other stuff. It took months to get paid. Worse than dealing with Russia. So I can vouch for the fact that the rules are not applied in the same way across the EU. For every other EU country, whether we are buying or selling, a VAT number is all that is needed to zero rate the transaction.
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:03 pm
by stork
I know this is somewhat late in the discussion, but as it has a lasting value I contribute anyway:
In Portugal, persons as well as companies have a NIF, Numero Identificação Fiscal. This is nine digits, and AFAIK the first digit is 1 or 2 for persons and 5 or 9 for companies.
My company, Algarve Away, uses the NIF (509 xxx xxx) for VAT purposes nationally.
For the rest of EU, I normally enter my NIF with a country code prefix (PT 509 xxx xxx) and am not charged VAT.
A few companies (including Amazon) does not offer this facility, I there have to write to the and claim it back.
Hope this helps someone
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:06 pm
by juliet
Thanks all thereis some very good info on this topic
Many thanks
J